Page 1 of 8: Analysis: Doctors vying for Australia, read this carefully

Dr_A · Credits: 1726 My Scrapbook

From what I've gathered out of a lot of research, it looks like the only PG one can do in Australia is GP. And the total time spent to get into it will be 4 years after you really make up your mind (ie from the time one answers his AMC 1). Now that which still remains uncertain is if one can get into a residency of his choice even after the 4 years that I'm talking about? If so then what about the 10 year moratorium??? According to it a foreign doctor has to practise in rural areas for a minimum of 10 years before he can get his medicare number. Which in other words sounds like you can only be a rural GP for 10 years after you complete your AMC and PR formalities.

Putting it all together it works out to be 13 years from the completion of your AMC to finish your residency in your field of choice (unless you want to remain a GP all life). From then another 3 years for a fellowship in a subspeciality. So in all 16 years!!! How can any system is the world be so cruel to Medicos? Thats the fact guys, so before you embark on this great Australian dream find out things for yourself and be sure about whats going to greet you there. Alternate courses, its expenses and the time involved, is it all worth what you get in return
Is there anyone who can refute these facts

The above is the contents of my post 'Can anyone shed more info' and though 31 people went through it, no body really cared to reply. Is it out of shock at whats there or is it because they can't refute facts?? Where is the Delhiboy 1000 or Arihant gone? I atleast expected them to post a reply on that thread. Well, it looks like they are also unaware of the facts.

'Confused' has written something relevant and he seems to have done some research. But still it dosen't look like he's done his homework well. People consider these facts and lets help each other by trying to find out more info on this topic and discussing it here and the forum so that it can benefit all of us.

Fact 1: AMC time frame Even after a person clears his AMC 1 it will take him 9-16 months to appear for the AMC 2 no matter how high the score.
So a person out of his internship can wait nearly 2 years after his MBBS to just get to write his AMC 2. In the meanwhile, do what???

Fact 2: The shortage that Australia is facing is at the GP level or the specialist level, not at the junior doctor level.

Fact 3: Even after one has cleared his AMC 1 and AMC 2 he will have to go through the supervised training (internship again) before he gets his unconditional registration with the AMC. And mind you the supervised training posts are really tough to get and some of the state boards even require that the applicants have to be PR's or citizens of Australia before being eligible to apply for a internship post.

Fact 4: After the one yr of internship one has to do a 2 yr generalised training (Glorified extension of internship) before being able to apply for an SHO post.

Fact 5: After that you can possibly apply for residencies or speciality, but mind you the catch here is that the only possible residency or training post open to International medical graduates is that of a GP and nothing more. All the other lucrative posts are reserved for the graduates of the Australian Medical schools and they are normally not given out to others (Atleast in Canada they have a second reiteration for IMG's, sadly Australia dosen't even have that.

Fact 6: So after spending almost 4-5 lakhs and 4 years out of medical school the realization that dawns on an aspiring 'AMC specialist' is that he can be nothing else but a GP.

Is the time and money spend in the entire process worth it guys??? Don't just get over enthusiastic by the 'Doctor shortage in Australia ' and jump. Figure out facts for yourself and then decide!!!

If you do feel like contributing positive responses and having a discussion, feel free to put it down and you'll surely get a response

pragathi · Credits: 554 My Scrapbook My Reading List 2 Books

Hi Dr_A, U definetley seem to have done ur homework well..I have just started on Rxpg and I am regretting not having done so before..u guys have a lot of info here..I have been to Australia and have cleared the mcq part and am looking out for the clinical part..still I dont have as much info as u seem to have..I will just say what I can..
About fact 1: true getting a place for part 2 is difficult after clearing part 1 cause of all the heavy competition but the fresh passes of mcq are given preference over the older ones and people who passed the mcq with me gave the clinical part in just 3 months after,the only disadvantage I had was that I had to come back to India cause my visa ran out..if u have a reason to stay(which I should add is THE main hitch!!)u can give the part 2 in just 3 to 4 months.
ur facts 2 and 3 are ROCK SOLID true!!
Fact 4: I am not sure cause 4 of my study mates (for sure) got into training posts after just 6 months of internship though at the beginnig they were told they had to do it for 1 year and few others got in after the definite 1 yr internship..
Fact 5: also I am not sure..cause two of the ones I mentioned above got into Psychiatry , one into Gyn-Obs , one into internal medicine..but i have to add that there definitely are some hospitals who specify for graduates for aussie grads, but not all hospitals..
Fact 6 could be true..
I add again that my info is not as complete as urs seem to be and I am just sharing what I know..

NIC · Credits: 25024 My Scrapbook My Reading List 8 Books

Hi, regarding the hospitals, are they all in the city? What are the prospects in Sydney or Melbourne?? Thanks.

Dr_A · Credits: 1726 My Scrapbook

Hi Pragathi,

The data that you've given is indeed right. But I would say that it has a lot of variation and it really depends on what point of time are you looking at Australia . The current scenario is totally different from what it was in 2004 or the year when the GP crisis bloomed. Its only a matter of one year but things have taken a bad turn of events in the Ozzie land.

AMC 2 within 3-4 months??? No offences meant but I would just suggest you to take a lot at

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(section under faq's for AMC 2). The AMC themselves commit to the fact that the waiting period between the results of AMC 1 and taking the AMC 2 can be 9-16 months and on an average it is 12 months generally. No matter how high your score, the number of attempts etc, you cannot just make it in 3-4 months time. Based on the factors that you've quoted ie the no of attempts and the score etc may be a consideration when pushing you further after 12 months, thats the sad fact. There's already a back log of 1200 candidates and it would take the AMC approx 18 months to clear that back log and that is without considering the new candidates who are clearing the AMC 1 and adding to the pile.

Training posts within 6 months !!! Thats ridiculous, come on, take a look for yourself at the AMC guidelines and how can a person get into any training posts unless he is fully registered with the AMC??? Since you've told you are from India, you tell me is it possible for you to join your PG after 6 months of internship??? For a person to be fully registered with the AMC he/she has to complete his AMC 1+ AMC 2+ I year of supervised training.

Training posts after 1 year of supervised training : Theoretically possible but practically almost impossible. AMC 1 + AMC 2 + 1 year of supervised training + 2 years of generalised training. True that Australia has an acute shortage of doctors, but thats at the specialist level and GP level, not at the junior doctor level. And believe me they have no desires or plans to train foreigners towards specialists.

The only slight possibility I see is towards the 'Occupational trainee' posts that 'Confused' had mentioned about and that also is very competitive and requires the person to be in Australia inorder to be able to apply in person as and when they are advertised. How far getting into that post is possible, got to be seen, I can't comment on that 'cos I don't have facts about it as yet, but will do so soon.

Well Ella, as far as hopsitals are concerned, Sydney and Melbourne are the most competitive to get into and the competition is so fierce between the Australian nationals itself that foreigners don't even keep it as a choice. Now don't tell me about Gippsland, Geelong, Newcastle etc, etc because I do agree the shortage is felt relatively more severe in these areas when you talk of NSW or Victoria. But then again they are the AON jobs for which you require 5 years postinternship experience (not 2 years) and specialists who can apply directly for exemption.

I'm not being pessimistic, but facts are facts. I welcome anyone who can refute these realities with a good data. Till then cheers

RANGER · Credits: 2218 My Scrapbook

Hi Dr_A I must say your post was very thought-provoking and accurate,but lets all remind ourselves of a few fundermental facts of life.
Firstly the grass always looks greener from the other side.Our colleagues who have left often give the greener side of the story failing trlineo enlighten aspiring immigrants of the problems they went through before selttling down.In the Uk for instance it may take up to 2 years to land that highly elusive first job. Its more straight-forward in the US but woe betide you should your MLE scores be border line.Also the US exam process costs an arm and a leg and takes at least two years from start to the residency job because of the synchronised admission system. Australia may even be a little bit more favorable in that regard becuse of the dire state of some categories of manpower needs .
Secondly its reasonable to expect suboptimal conditions when you are outside of your own country, afterall its some one else's country. Foreign Drs will always be employed in the jobs they are needed NOT in the jobs of their choice anywhere in the world. In the UK most available posts are in GP or Psychiatry , in the US its in family medicine and internal medicine. If all of us were to enter neurosurgery and orthopaedics and Dermatology then who will treat the far commoner flus, headaches, depression etc?
Lastly people have vastly differing fortunes on the same issues. Its all down to luck or Karma or whatever you choose to call it. Sheer determination could see some foreign doctors landing juicy residency posts and jobs. There's no harm in trying, dreaming ,expecting, but above all dont get frustrated or unduly negative. you may miss good opportunities if you do.
Let our spirits not be dampened.. just be realistic and set realistic targets. If you are so bent on being a top specialist I suggest you stay back in your home country and complete a residency program before heading out.That way you will always be what you are...a specialist ..even if your job designation is different.
Cheer up Guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

delhiboy1000 · Credits: 15484 My Scrapbook

Extremely well said Ranger!

Dr_A · Credits: 1726 My Scrapbook

Your philospohies may be true. But can't take presumptions when coming to the question of deciding a career. If you can settle for anything that you get then you can go around to any part of the world and be satisfied with what you get. I believe in ''Taking care to get what I like, rather than forcing myself to like what I get''. Everyone knows the shortages in Australia and the problems with that. The AMC keeps changing the duration between AMC 1 and AMC 2 as and how they like. It was 6-9 months some time back and now they've made it 9-16 months. So they are just making things all the more tougher.

Now about the UK and US, well thats something very interesting. The US is pretty transparent as regards to their medical system. MLE 1 + MLE 2 (CK and CS) and you can apply for the ERAS. The only problem is with the visa for CS and these days they have even relaxed that a bit. UK is a story of super saturation but still the situation is not as bad as Australia . Atleast they don't pose waiting periods of 9-16 months between PLAB 1 and PLAB 2, do they???

The harsh reality is that the medical system in Australia lacks transparency.

** Post Edited**
Agreed everyone has the right to post. Dont abuse it by making personal comments.

delhiboy1000 · Credits: 15484 My Scrapbook

* Edited*

RANGER · Credits: 2218 My Scrapbook

Just take it easy and remember that leaving your home country is already a big compromise.

confused · Credits: 3655 My Scrapbook

well said "ranger" in both the replies.

Now some generalizations to all.

1) if the intention is to go abroad and make money- doesnt matter which speciality. what if u are a gp

2) if the intention is to get ur choice of speciality abroad- work hard dear and pray luck is with you. my classmates have got into neurology and
radiology in america and another has had his visa rejected 4 times. fortune favours the brave

3) if the intention is to get ur choice without so much of sweat and money is not an issue- work hard - u will succeed in india

4) if the intention is to serve india- stick on - do what u like the best/ do something to live - dont crib

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