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RxPG :: View topic - Is Surgery gettable in US?  
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Author Message

AshB


FAQ: Is Surgery gettable in US?
Hi guys.. Surgery is a highly glam branch yet ever elusive for those planning to get it in US. Lets discuss here all the possibilities pertaining to a surgery residency in US.

UNANSWERED: AIIMS VS USMLE

tgs
Aim USMLE Step 1

pg in surgery in usa
hey guys can u ppl plz help me out.

i m a 3rd mbbs student in ahmedabad and so i guess its time to decide whether to give usmle or not.

i m very much inclined on goin to usa for pg but i wanna do it in surgery.

i know its almost impossible to get in to surgery there without a green card but are there any chances of getting admission in surgery there ???[/b]


sybarite


hi tgs...

yes, it is extremely difficult to get into surgery in the US.. but its not impossible....
if u get phenomenal scores... u might just get lucky..
contacts in this field in the US will also help..
but i think its will be relatively easier to get in india, if u r prepared to work hard..

good luck


tgs
Aim USMLE Step 1

hey thankyou

the problem with me is that my whole family is in usa so i have to think of a career option in usa

is it possible to go to us after ms here in india ???


doc_g
Aim TOEFL

are we allowed to take up surgery... n do fmgs usually get t??


doc_g
Aim TOEFL

have u got answers yet???
me 2 interested n surgery....


paxyl171
Aim USMLE Step 3

yeah FMGs do get surgery. but for that try getting exellent score 245-25- or even more. show the u r the best. u might get it.
it is very hard for FMG to get in. but try ur luck, i have seen IMG's gettin surgery..
oke
bye


doc_g
Aim TOEFL

hi
iffff imgs get surgery then it must be a lot easier for fmg's na??
(img-studied in india n working there and fmg an indian whose got his degree from abroad)---rite or i m nterchanging dem??
so who has better chance
advisable to do ug frm us????
rather than try 6 yrs hence???


tinkerbell
Aim USMLE Jobs

Re: hi
doc_g wrote:
iffff imgs get surgery then it must be a lot easier for fmg's na??
(img-studied in india n working there and fmg an indian whose got his degree from abroad)---rite or i m nterchanging dem??
so who has better chance
advisable to do ug frm us????
rather than try 6 yrs hence???


graduation from US medical school wont guarantee a surg residency.

excellent scores + citizenship/ Green card /+ good contacts is the best way to get a surg categorical postion.

i hope you know that for surgery , they have a pyramid system in US....you can get dropped from the program if you are not the best....its risky, length and tedious.

another way of getting into surg residency is a doing ms in india /+ mrcs from UK....frcs trained candidates had a good chance of making it to surg programs earlier...but these days, you get only mrcs degree....
work experience in the filed of surgery is of great value and comes in handy while applying to US general residency training programs


tgs
Aim USMLE Step 1

well ya doin ug there makes a difference but if u hav not still done ug than u cant decide whether u wanna go for surgery.
doin ug there means that u dont hav to give usmle exams which makes a lot of diff.
but ug there is very costly and takes lot of years so it will b better if u think about it after inquiring enough about that


AshB


tgs wrote:
doin ug there means that u dont hav to give MLE exams which makes a lot of diff.

icon_eek.gif icon_eek.gif icon_eek.gif icon_eek.gif icon_eek.gif icon_eek.gif icon_eek.gif icon_eek.gif icon_eek.gif
Who told u so!!!!! Everyone has to take MLE whether US graduate or Indian graduate.

tgs wrote:
the problem with me is that my whole family is in usa so i have to think of a career option in usa

If u have a GC or US citizenship or can acquire GC b4 applying for match, it'll greatly increase ur chances of getting better residency slots.

Surgery these days has come within reach of IMGs. Good scores, some research background, contacts, observerships, US LORs are factors, any/all which increase ur chances a lot.


tinkerbell
Aim USMLE Jobs

tgs wrote:
doin ug there means that u dont hav to give <a href="http://www.rxpgonline.com/forum5.html">USMLE</a>
exams which makes a lot of diff.


there is no escape from USMLE....anyone who wishes to match has to take it.


tgs
Aim USMLE Step 1

sorry guys for the mle thing
but a us citizen can easily get into surgery there
i.e. its easier for them than a person who is not


mnys
Aim MMST - IIT Kharagpur

Hi All,
Thnx 4 all the great info posted by all the docs.But i have a few questions:

1.Is it possible to get selected for a residency program in surgery.i have heard that its next to impossible.what would i need to do to get selected cuz i have a great interest in surgery.

2.I have had average marks in my UG med exams and had an attempt in anatomy in my 1st prof.so i dont have a great med school transcript & wont have much to write in my LOR.will this effect my chances of gettin residency prog & in surgery even if i have very good MLE scores.What wud i need to do to compensate.

3.Lastly,What is Advantage of doin step 3

Plz anyone Answer my queries....i'll be extremely grateful....thank u


AshB


mnys wrote:
Hi all

Hi mnys, what u have asked is impossible to answer it all here, but definitely getting surgery is one possible task.. icon_smile.gif U'll have to go thru d forums to get detailed answers to ur queries cos they have been extensively discussed there. Still i'll give a short answer to ur queries here.

mnys wrote:

1.Is it possible to get selected for a residency program in surgery.i have heard that its next to impossible.what would i need to do to get selected cuz i have a great interest in surgery.

Surgery is perfectly within reach of IMGs. In fact lots of them have gotten it in past couple of matches. Get good scores, do observerships in US, get some research experience under ur belt and some US LORs and u'll have a fair chance of getting surgery.

mnys wrote:
2.I have had average marks in my UG med exams and had an attempt in <a href="http://www.rxpgonline.com/forum97.html">Anatomy</a>
in my 1st prof.so i dont have a great med school transcript & wont have much to write in my LOR.will this effect my chances of gettin residency prog & in surgery even if i have very good MLE scores.What wud i need to do to compensate.

In MLE UG performance matters little, as long as u can get good scores and do few of the things i've mentioned above.

mnys wrote:
3.Lastly,What is Advantage of doin step 3

Step 3 is necessary for getting an H1 visa which is preferred by IMGs. Plus a good step 3 score showcases ur knowledge of patient management skills which again adds to ur CV. And that can cover up any poor performance in previous steps.


usmle1doc
Aim USMLE Step 1

@ mny,

AshB has perfectly answered all the Qs very consicely.

I'd like to add my 2 cents to it...

Well abt step3 its always good for H1 but not very helpful in getting residency coz NRMC-2005 publication says that its the Step1 score which matters the ost (FA says its step2) with no difference shown due to step3.

Abt surgey residency- yes its A VERY COMPETITIVE speciality and need all the things to be done as told by AshB. Good research and good scores instep1 is the key for it. Its true that many of the IMGs got the residency but most of them got a transitional year resi (in thi you have to compete again after 1 year) and not the "categorical surgey"(full 3-4 years). In 2005mean score for surgery match was 222 which is approx =90.

In a nut shell its true that its very hard to get surgery but not impossible provided you invest ome time in "US based research,observership and LORs" with good scores in all steps obviously. Now its upto you abt how to get these....


tinkerbell
Aim USMLE Jobs

mnys wrote:
Thnx AshB n Usmle1doc for ur replies...


i`d like to add some more scoop on surgery.

green card/ citizenship of US....especially useful in cases with low USMLE scores.

post graduate experience in the field of surgery.....highly rated

also, surg programs have a pyramid system...which means you are likely to be dropped from the program if your performance is not upto the mark



AshB


tinkerbell wrote:

its an evergreen debate...the best way is to concentrate on all steps equally

Exactly! icon_smile.gif

tinkerbell wrote:
also, surg programs have a pyramid system...which means you are likely to be dropped from the program if your performance is not upto the mark

Yes its a very important point that tinkerbell has pointed out. This actually has happened to students who have been dropped in between, risk is more so for IMGs.


usmle1doc
Aim USMLE Step 1

i think the points are very well put by tinkerbell and ashB!

we should consider all the possibilities and work towards the best score with all over efforts!

usmle1doc


HARISH_SR
Aim Australia

hi... iam harish from india... iam studying in final year mbbs iin india and wil be graduating out in 2008... iam very much interested in surgery.... will i get a residency in surgery in US?? how much should i score in all the three steps?? plz help me.... is it possible for me to stay in toronto and give my usmle.... coz i have my uncle who is in toronto and noone else in america....


medisid
Aim MRCP Part 2

the only thing which u should keep in mind haridh is that to score the 'bestest' of score in all step.
90+ in any case.
AND
it is possible to get surgery in us, but u have to prove yourself in usmle that u r much better than US grads.
focus on step scores at present.
if possible try to get honors or topper in your final yr surgery exams. that may benefit a bit.


fragile_x
Aim USMLE Jobs

lol.......surgery in US and usmle........and soda ur in 1st year of ur MBBS!

yaar.....kya kar raha hai???

dont do this man.......the rat race will last a lifetime.

enjoy the time on ur hand as long as it lasts.....

there"s a time for usmle and there"s a time to kick back and sip pinacolada.

this is the time for u to sip pinacolada for a little while.

over and out.


fragile_x
Aim USMLE Jobs

kapish?


HARISH_SR
Aim Australia

yeah... thats true... to score above 90 in step 1 and step2 is that too difficult....? iam ready to work hard as much it requires.... iam sure... but i need guidance.... i dont have anybody in US... but i have my uncle in toronto.... can i try usmle from there...? how will be CS and CK..?very difficult to score in that?? plz let me know...


sherlock
Aim AIIMS

how many percent chances do i have of getting surgery in a decent univ at 98%ile in step1..will my doing indian PG in surgery have any bearing on my chances?


AshB


sherlock wrote:
how many percent chances do i have of getting surgery in a decent univ at [snip]%ile in step1..will my doing indian PG in surgery have any bearing on my chances?

Branches like surgery depend on much more than scores. Definitely high 90s have increased chances.

Contrary to usual notion, doing PG in india makes no difference, SPECIALLY in good programs except on folowing counts:
1. U have a plan B
2. If u can get good number of credible publications during that period, u increase ur chances.

I've heard of a few obscure programs offering waiver of one year of residency in other branches except surgery, to thode who had done PG in India.


sherlock
Aim AIIMS

thanks a lot


HARISH_SR
Aim Australia

hi tinker bell... iam harish from india.. iam in my final year..iam very much interested in doing surgery in united states.... is that possible for me or surgery is beyond reach for imgs..?? plz help me to get clear regarding this.... if available what should be the score.???


AshB


HARISH_SR wrote:
hi tinker bell... iam harish from india.. iam in my final year..iam very much interested in doing surgery in united states.... is that possible for me or surgery is beyond reach for imgs..?? plz help me to get clear regarding this.... if available what should be the score.???

Surgery is said to be 'within reach' for IMGs nowadays. Its tough but not impossible to get it.

As far as scores go, my dear get d best u can. This year even people with high 90s r not sure of getting calls from even decent programs of gettable branches like medicine, paeds programs. Its getting VERY tough, so aim for d highest score specially if wan't to get anywhere near surgery.


HARISH_SR
Aim Australia

ok thanks for the information..... and one more thing i wanned to get confirmed is want are the problems after passing MLE that i might face in getting residency....??


HARISH_SR
Aim Australia

thanks ash B.... its very kind of you as you made up some time yourself to send me the information... that much is enough to build up my inspiration to work hard for USMLE.... i was afraid if surgery was not available despite my scores.... for that sake i am sticking myself to books all the time.... iam going through good books i hope which might help a long way in getting good score in USMLE.... i am mad about surgery..... what do you say will i end up in surgery in US after this stuff of hard work???


AshB


HARISH_SR wrote:

.... i was afraid if surgery was not available despite my scores.... for that sake i am sticking myself to books all the time.... iam going through good books i hope which might help a long way in getting good score in <a href="http://www.rxpgonline.com/forum5.html">USMLE</a>
.... i am mad about surgery..... what do you say will i end up in surgery in US after this stuff of hard work???

I'd still repeat, though surgery is within reach these days, its still a risk making it ur target. And everyone who's targetting surgery in US shud either keep his/her mind open to d option of another gettable branch or have a plan B like a PG in surgery from some other place.

SURGERY IS UNPREDICTABLE and luck seems to play an important part.. thats all i can say. Get as many factors right, from d ones i've mentioned in other threads, as u can. Scores, USCE, contacts, publications, US LORs and planning are d most important according to me.


hihoriya_nikes
Aim GRE

I need help abt surgical branch
hello friends...

i m planning for usa...i just know is there any chance to get admission in surgical branch with green card or without it....is there any branch apart from MPH that wil help me to get addmission in surgical branch


AshB


Re: I need help abt surgical branch
hihoriya_nikes wrote:
hello friends...

i m planning for usa...i just know is there any chance to get admission in surgical branch with green card or without it....is there any branch apart from MPH that wil help me to get addmission in surgical branch

Green card definitely improves ur chances of getting surgery.

But its a myth that MPH improves d chances. I know people who did their MPH from John Hopkins or Harvard n still din make it to a decent surgery program.

A good number of publications n oserverships at renowned hospitals may add to ur chances.


hihoriya_nikes
Aim GRE

hi AshB,

i am really thankful to for giving me answer .....heartily
have a nice time...


hihoriya_nikes
Aim GRE

???

hello friends ,

will any tell me that is there any branch apart from MPH ..... ? that might help to get admission in surgical branch ....??

thank to all for interesting in surgey n helping n solving each others query.....hv a grt tm


mnys
Aim MMST - IIT Kharagpur

Hi Friends.....
Thnx AshB ,Usmle 1 Doc & Tinkerbell for ur info which is useful as always....I have a few more Qs to ask....
-Is thre any relaxation in duration of the surgery residency program in the US if one has done his surgery PG from a reputed institute like AIIMS & then does his USMLE....does he even have to go thru the residency program or can he simply go for a fellowship...
-Does doing ones PG from an Institute like AIIMs improve chances of gettin Residency slot in surgery.
-What r the Advantages & possibilities after doin Pg from AIIMs as far as studying further & workin in the US r concerned.
-lastly would u recommend such a plan.
THnx A lot for all ur contribution....God Bless!


HARISH_SR
Aim Australia

what are the other gettable options in US??


HARISH_SR
Aim Australia

hi what are the other options available in US other than surgery?? what about ortho,med ped........???


vacant_planets2000


One thing Iíd say is that stop worrying about surgery/ortho/med/ped/moons of Jupiter etc at this point. I say first give USMLEs and you'll have some idea about where you actually stand. There is no point ion asking if surgery is available or not in states or something like that when you're a UG student or havenít even started on MLEs yet.

I want to accept here that around few months or a year ago I was also asking the same questions and surfing and searching message boards with search strings like IMG + Surgery, Fmg + surgery, IMG/FMG + Surgery etc But in last few months of my thorough visiting the Student doctor network forums [STDN] and talking to some of the people who have ACTUALLY gone through the matching process has changed my outlook a lot.

See almost all of the people who post here [and a huge percentage of those who post on an American forum like STDN] are med students and interns and people who have not gone through the entire matching process [this is a generalization, and I know some of you have done your share], or say done an observership somewhere or say even visited US. Itís very difficult to have an idea about the actual state of residency for FMGs in states from discussion on these forums, because the sample bias is on the too negative side. And reality might differ a lot from whatever has been discussed on the forums.

Say for example the pyramid system. Pyramid system in surgery was a PAST and there is no such system there right now. I have enough evidence to support it. There has been enough discussion about this issue on the STDN itself, where lots of posters are actually residents in states and I have also made my inquiries through people who are IMGs and doing residency or fellowship there [please donít ask for mails, adds etc] , and they have all asserted in a single sentence that it DOESNíT exist . To a small measure it might exist in military programs [in which IMGs are obviously not allowed] but itís a thing of past in civilian programs now.

There is no guarantee or percentage confirmation of getting surgery there based on just the scores because as lots of people have rightfully posted , there are lots more factors which affect the selection than mere scores[ that doesnít mean scores are not imp, they are] . And no one can surely say if her/she will/wonít be able to match until unless one tried and experienced for oneself, because I have seen people with avg scores get in a decent surgery program and at the same time getting rejected from community residency programs [Again as Ash b has pointed out in Harvard/JH MPH case].I have even contacted a fellow who matched in to Ortho [ Indian ,no previous PG degree, no green card, no research, the guy just did a rotation for a month at the program] two years back at a nice university program ,so give it a shot. World doesnít end at surgery. [No I arenít a loser, I am giving MLE in Mar 2007, and going for MPH at possibly a superbly reputed institution.]

So I suggest anyone enthusiastic about surgery is US to take chill pill and start concentrating on USMLEs. Rest will take care of itself when their time arrives.

Rock on.

Edited to remove links to sites other than RxPG network


AshB


vacant_planets2000 wrote:
One thing Iíd say is that stop worrying about surgery/<a href="http://www.rxpgonline.com/forum94.html">orthopaedics</a>
/med/ped/moons of Jupiter etc at this point. I say first give USMLEs and you'll have some idea about where you actually stand. There is no point ion asking if surgery is available or not in states or something like that when you're a UG student or havenít even started on MLEs yet.

Hey thanks for d encouraging post. A lot of people wud find their sagging spirits elevate after reading this. In a way u r right, its important to be positive and give ur best, rest can follow. Risk is with everything, its upto us to decide what magitude we can take.

I don't say u cannot get surgery, i say be prepared, if u don't get surgery. I still believe surgical branches have increased risk percentage as compared to medical branches and unless u perform well on all aspects that affect getting a residency, and r mentally prepared for any mishap, u're at a huge risk of frustrating urself.

I'd like to add, posters here don't just express their personal views or simply speculate d whole thing. icon_eek.gif Believe me they too have surfed plenty of forums, called/mailed/talked their frens/seniors/relatives/PDs/Profs in US etc etc to know d ground realities there for IMGs. It might not be too tough but its not that simple as any forum of US grads might sound. I say this cos for every person i know who got a surgical branch, i know 4+ who didn't, even with gr8 (not just good) scores.

Its important to derive motivation from those who made it, at d same time keeping caution while learning from those who didn't. Isn't it? icon_smile.gif icon_smile.gif

Good luck all.. icon_smile.gif


vacant_planets2000


Amen


hellothere
Aim FRCOphth

hi vacant_planets 2000...
thnx for such an encouraging post... icon_smile.gif
it wud b gr8 if u cud post the web addresses of some of these 'student n doctors forums'...
thanx a ton...

icon_smile.gif


vacant_planets2000


I already posted it in original post but the admins deleted it. They dont allow links to other forums it seems


mnys
Aim MMST - IIT Kharagpur

Hi Friends.....
Thnx AshB ,USMLE 1 Doc & Tinkerbell for ur info which is useful as always....I have a few more Qs to ask....

-Is thre any relaxation in duration of the surgery residency program in the US if one has done his surgery PG from a reputed institute like AIIMS & then does his USMLE ....does he even have to go thru the residency program or can he simply go for a fellowship...

-Does doing ones PG from an Institute like AIIMS improve chances of gettin Residency slot in surgery.
-What r the Advantages & possibilities after doin Pg from AIIMS as far as studying further & workin in the US r concerned.

-lastly would u recommend such a plan.

PLZ reply.....THnx A lot for all ur contribution....God Bless!


AshB


mnys wrote:
-Is thre any relaxation in duration of the surgery residency program in the US if one has done his surgery PG from a reputed institute like AIIMS & then does his USMLE ....does he even have to go thru the residency program or can he simply go for a fellowship...

I've heard that some prograns offer a one year waiver for PG in surgery. But i guess that's not based on ur parent institute but ur CV, say publications and all. Plus its offered by few programs and ever fewer programs that r considered above average.

mnys wrote:
-Does doing ones PG from an Institute like <a href="http://www.rxpgonline.com/forum2.html">AIIMS</a >
improve chances of gettin Residency slot in surgery.
-What r the Advantages & possibilities after doin Pg from <a href="http://www.rxpgonline.com/forum2.html">AIIMS</a>
as far as studying further & workin in the US r concerned.

If u ask me, for getting a residency the only advantage of a previous PG is d chance to add a few publications to ur CV. I always feel PG is more of a backup plan than an advantage in getting a residency.

mnys wrote:
-lastly would u recommend such a plan.

Well if u r hell bent on surgery, assess urself thoroughly. I'd say consider direct route on following conditions:
- If u r sure u can work hard to make it to high 90s
- Can persevere to get urself observerships n US LORs
- Can perform well n confidently at d interviews
- U have d patience n devotion to wait for another match if u dnt get it in d first attempt
- Or u can be content with medicinal branches if u dnt get surgery
In that case, as vacant planets said, just go ahead n believe in urself n god.

Kyunki "Girte hain shehsawaar hi maidane jung main, wo tifl kya girenge jo ghutno k bal chalte hain." icon_smile.gif (I say this cos i personally believe in taking risks icon_smile.gif icon_smile.gif)

N if anyways u feel underconfident n r not d risk taker types, better get a PG from here first cos going directly will bear a risk on ur surgery dreams.

P.S.: These r purely my personal views n please decide after finding out what others feel n then using ur own sense n logic.


AshB


HARISH_SR wrote:
hi what are the other options available in US other than surgery?? what about <a href="http://www.rxpgonline.com/forum94.html">orthopaedics</a>
,med ped........???

Orthopaedics is even tougher than general surgery.

Medicine paeds r d most common brances that IMGs get. Other common ones are Psychiatry, Family Practice and Obs/gynae.


mnys
Aim MMST - IIT Kharagpur

Thnx AshB....
Uve been a gr8 help....Thnx.


lonedoc


hi all.... superb thread.... i am an old man comp to u ppl.... post ms from a good place with more than 5 yrs exp in surgery.... very good quality for india.... & now i want to goto u.s. do surgery, & obviously nothing else..... the problem is that microbiology sounds about as familiar as special theory of rlativity at this point to me..... its encouraging to hear that most pgs in states are in mid 30's, cause thats what i'l be.... & i dont even mind being the uncle of the class...
the question is,
1) if i dont get bthe great scores that are being bandied about here, will my knowledge & experience give me any edge?
2) starting from zero today, how long will it take for me to complete preperation?(of course i'm only looking for a generalk guideline here, not a specific date.... ps, i was a top 10% stident in ug, but not a top 2% one

any help will be appreciated


AshB


lonedoc wrote:

the question is,
1) if i dont get bthe great scores that are being bandied about here, will my knowledge & experience give me any edge?

Well the question is how do u show them ur knowledge apart from scores? Cos work experience in some Indian hospital is not of much value. The most efficient way is to publish, which if u have, will definitely help. Like say if u have tried something different successfully in surgery and published that.. they'll take u with both hands.
lonedoc wrote:
2) starting from zero today, how long will it take for me to complete preperation?(of course i'm only looking for a generalk guideline here, not a specific date.... ps, i was a top 10% stident in ug, but not a top 2% one

Plz read other threads for other's views. Acco to me with 6-7 hours a day, for u it would be:
Step1-4-5 months
Step2CK-3-4 months
Step2CS-15-30 days

Good luck icon_smile.gif

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